Alan Johnson, Dudley Wood, Frank Sherman
95TH BOMB GROUP (H)
ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
2004 REUNION WASHINGTON, D.C.
JM: This is Janie McKnight from the 95th Bomb Group, and tonight I’m here with Frank Sherman, and also Alan Johnson, who are here for the reunion here in Washington, D.C. from England. Frank, for the record, will you state your name and today’s date.
FS: Yes, my name is Frank Sherman. And today’s date is the 9/11/04 in Washington, D.C.
JM: I also want to add that with us tonight is Jamie M________, whose accompanying Alan on this trip. Frank, can you tell us what your affiliation is with the 95th Bomb Group?
FS: Yes, well along with about eleven others, we’re on the committee for the 95th Bomb Group at Horham. And my actual job is membership, for recruiting new members. I’m also helping with the events, organizing the events on the open days that we have. Also throughout the year and the winter months we organize film shows and talks of World War II, or connections with World War II. And with that, of course, we’ve helped to renovate the Red Feather Club, which we’ve been working – when I say we’ve been working, I would rather say Alan Johnson, whose done so much work and building work on this project, along with John, John B. And together they’ve done a wonderful job over the last ten months. It should have been a three year project. But they’ve done it in record time for our opening day, which was in May this year. And well, without that, of course we could have never done it, certainly not in the time and without their labor. They worked all hours of the day, and done a job. So now the Red Feather Club is a project that we’re very, very proud of. I think I can speak for everybody for that. So the first opening day with the renovation was this year when we were able to get some of the veterans back, and their families – a very successful day, we feel, with things like a fly over with a Steerman aircraft. And we had a Guard of Honor for that day from Lakenheath in Suffolk. It was a very successful day, and along with many vehicles we had present as well. And I think I’m right in saying that we had somewhere in the region of twenty odd American jeeps, which was quite an achievement.
JM: About how many people came to that event?
FS: In the region of a thousand to probably 1200 people attended that.
JM: Can you tell me how the organization came into being? Who was instrumental in getting it started, and what piqued that interest?
FS: Yes. It really was the year 2000, I think I’m right in saying, Alan, was our new association. And this started up when we called ourselves Horham Airfield Heritage Association. This is what we started up in the year 2000 with Andrew (Castleton?) quite keen. Not knowing perhaps so much about Horham and the past of Horham, but was keen to get an association going along with our members. And he has a light aircraft he flies off what remains of the old runway at Horham, as he’s taken a few veterans up when they’ve come over as well. And he’s been a great help in that respect. And then we all have our jobs on the committee. And this went very well. And then we decided, we must do something about the Red Feather Club because it was deteriorating. We’ve got these lovely murals. Although Alan and others had done things to protect that with the roof, there was still a lot of work to be done. And we’d like to get some of the old buildings back up that have long gone down. And so this is how it started. Then we realized that we couldn’t raise enough money to do all this – these things like film shows and things. We could just keep going, do odd repairs. So we then applied for the lottery with some help. We managed to get this lottery money. Then they weren’t prepared to pay for labor, so we got to have voluntary labor, which is where Alan and John came in. And others did their various bits and pieces to help. This is how it started up. So then we had to change, we decided to change the name. And of course, as you well know, we now go under the name of the 95th Bomb Group Heritage Association – Horham.
JM: Who actually owns the building?
FS: Well, the building is owned by the 95th – I’m right in saying they paid for that, Alan. No? Could you put me right on that one, please?
AJ: No, it was originally paid for jointly. We raised a lot of money ourselves. So it was a joint venture, probably 50/50, I expect.
JM: 50/50 between which two groups?
AJ: The 95th Bomb Group and what used to be Friends of the 95th.
JM: So, were you both originally Friends of the 95th? Do you go back….
AJ: I was, going back in 1980 or something – the early ‘80’s.
FS: This is when I became a member. I was never on the committee like Alan was in the early days. This is when I was first involved, because of the land I had, which is part of the airfield, or part of the group of the airfield.
JM: Do you own some of the land?
FS: I own some land there where the Red Cross building was originally on – not there any longer, unfortunately. But ____________ is there, the barbershop, the theatre – cinema, the dinghy pool, where they tested the dinghies before they went on the planes. That’s still there, still with _____________. It can be seen, if they’d like to have a look around. And also the cookhouses and the officers’ mess was on my piece of ground as well. And that joined up to the 412th squadron, which ran up to the where the buildings of the cookhouse and that were. And of course there’s several bomb blast shelters there, as there is in most of the airfield area. But my land, a lot of it, is woodland – now grown up into woodland. But there’s still the paths and things – Burt’s walk, which they all well knew. They all gave names. The main road to it was the highway. (phone)
JM: I’m interested in hearing how you came into owning that land. Was that in your family right after the war?
FS: No, it wasn’t. It was purely by accident, really. In those days I was interested in shooting. And I was already hiring some woodland opposite. And this wood was very, very near, this land which was part of the group. And I made inquiries. It was a long while before I could find out who owned it, because it got derelict, and nobody was around. And eventually I heard that it was up for sale, and bought it. And probably at that time hadn’t realized how much of it belonged, you know, originally from the 95th.
JM: Did you buy it from the government?
FS: No, I didn’t. No, I didn’t because I didn’t buy it until 1970. It was 1970. By that time, the buildings, most of the buildings had gone. Still an underground shell, ____________________________________. And still the bomb shelter was there, and as I say, the things I’ve mentioned like the dinghy pool’s still there – still there as it was originally in the Contrails. I would like to just mention that the first man to make me a life member was Dave McKnight. And Grace wouldn’t believe that. She couldn’t believe. She said, “Could I see it?” I said, “Yes, I’ll e-mail it to you.” And I’ve got the card where he signed. And the next one, just to make sure I was there, was Al Franken. I’ve got both those cards today. That’s how I originally got involved in the group. And then as things went on, and the old group was retiring, we started with this new association, which as I say, we’re very, very pleased the way things are going. And I mean, the important thing is, some people can say, well, you know, we’re losing so many of these vets, it’s going to die out. But my saying is, as I say to the media, or anybody, that we want to keep it going for the families. This is the important thing. And we are, as I think Alan will agree, each year, getting more families come over. They’ve been a long while some of them coming, but we are getting more families coming. Not just the sons, but the grandchildren as well. And so that’s the reason we want to keep the thing going. And well, we’ll do what we can. But I’m not a young man anymore.
JM: Well that was the question I was going to ask. The 95th Bomb Group has the Legacy Group that have come along to sort of take over as they fade out. Do you have a younger generation, like Jamie?
FS: Yes, we have. I mean we’ve got people like Jamie who’s got interested. We’ve got other young ones on the committee that we hope we’re going to push them to do a little bit more so Alan and the rest of us don’t have to do quite so much. But that’s not always easy. They’ve got their work and their families to bring up. But that is our aim, to try and get the younger ones in to do a little bit more and probably take the pressure off us a bit as well. And of course I’ve already told you my story about how ____________ got more involved because I flew up there when I was just 15 years old in a B-17.
JM: Tell that story.
FS: Do you want me to tell?
JM: Yes, I’d like to have it on tape.
FS: Well, yes, I was just 15 – it would be late 1944. I’ve given my age away now. (laugh) And I was just old enough to have a uniform in what we call the Air Training Corps, which is the cadets of the RAF. And we, myself and a friend, decided we badly wanted to get up in one of these B-17’s because we’d been up in some of the British small aircraft for about 10 minutes or so. So we decided – I lived, by the way, during the war I lived about six miles from Horham now, but I lived about 15 miles away. But we could see all the planes taking off and landing at Horham and several other bases. So we decided one Sunday we ought to cycle over to Horham to the airfield and see if we could get on the base and get a trip in a B-17. So we cycled these 15 miles and found the guards at the gate, which was where the old telephone box was, and the church. So I said, could we go and see your commanding officer. So he said, “Oh yes, go across the base.” And he told us where to go. And we saw – some orderly met us at some office and I said, “We want to see your commanding officer.” And he took us in. And so we met him and he said, “What can I do for you lads? Sit down.” I said, “We’d like a flight in one of your B-17 bombers.” And he said, “Oh, would you? Hmmm. We’d better see what we can do then.” Just like that. So, he did. He got onto flying control and he had a word and said had they got anything going up, you know. Not on a mission, obviously, but, you know, either a training flight or reconnaissance. And they said yes, in about an hours time we’ve got one going up on a test flight that just had two new engines fitted. And that they’d be back to us, and we got to get parachutes and things. So they took us, and gave us candy and fed and watered us, as we say. And then we got these parachutes fitted, and we didn’t cycle anymore of course. We were picked up with a jeep and taken to this B-17 and we had two hours 40 minutes flight in this B-17. Fantastic something I’ll never forget. I remember Horham by it. And a wonderful experience for 15 year olds.
JM: Thank you. We have been joined by Dudley Wood. Dudley, can you tell us how you’re affiliated with the 95th and how you got interested in the 95th?
DW: Yes. Several years ago I retired. I lived in London and Carol, my wife, and I decided that we’d move out to a semi-rural location. And the plan was to buy south of London. Well one weekend we had to come up northeast to a wedding – a friend of Carol’s was getting married. And we were invited to the wedding reception. And it was suggested that we stay there overnight so that we could enjoy the party and have a drink or two without any worries about driving home that night. Just before that weekend I said to Carol, “Would you mind if I indulged in a little nostalgia and went and visited the Royal Air Force base where I was stationed during my national service, which was at that time a compulsory two years for all young men of the age of 18 and over who were fit enough to join the armed forces. So I was stationed, the majority of my time, at RAF _____________, East Anglia. Well, anyway, I said to Carol whilst we were looking at the RAF base, “Why don’t we come and live up here.” So four years ago we started living in East Anglia. As you’re well aware, there were over 60 United States Army Air Force bases in East Anglia during the war years. And we eventually bought a house in a hamlet called Wilby, which at that time, I wasn’t aware of, was only four miles away from a former United States Army Air Force base. Now we fast forward to ten months ago. I was in Diss, which is a large town – the nearest large town to us, doing our regular weekly shop. And on the way out, I stopped at the communal notice board, because it was always full of interesting events. And I spotted on this board a very attractive poster with color, text, and across the top it said 95th Bomb Group Heritage Association. And it was advertising a talk with slides about aircraft that had crashed in East Anglia during the war years. Because of my connection with being ex Royal Air Force, it obviously was of interest to me. So I decided to go along. And I went to this meeting. I don’t know who it was that conducted it. Frank would be able to tell me later, from records. But it was a most fascinating evening. And from that moment on, I was hooked on the 95th. So much so that the very next day I looked at a flyer that I’d taken from the meeting, which was advertised in the 95th, and I rang up a certain gentleman, one Frank Sherman, and introduced myself. And Frank and I got on very well on the phone. And we arranged that he would pop ‘round to my house the next day. Being an ex-sales representative, Frank was in there like a shot to sign me up for the 95th, which I was very happy to do. And as I say, this was about November of 003. Well one thing led to another. There was a call for people to help with the restoration where they could add a few hours to help the dynamic duo, as I tag them, that’s Alan Johnson and John Blott. And I thought, well, I can spare a few hours. So I went up there and reported to John Blott, and said “I’ll do whatever you want me to do, whatever helps.” And he said, “Get and clean the windows.” Not like that, of course, but he said would I do that? And I said, “Yeah, whatever.” So I cleaned the windows and I did a little bit of painting and I did a little bit of ________________. And then I was able to do one or two other helpful things for the 95th Red Feather Club. And I just got further and further involved. Frank has been a good friend. He’s been a good friend of mine. The relationship with the 95th was just going faster and faster. And then the secretary of the 95th decided to relinquish the post. And Frank asked me would I be interested in joining a committee. He said that one or two people had expressed interest in my joining. Well, I was very pleased to do that. In August, only last, well two months ago I became – sorry, one month ago – I became the secretary. And at that stage, although I’d been toying with the idea of coming over on this trip, at that stage I hadn’t made my mind up. But when I was made the secretary of the committee, I felt it would be appropriate for me to join the group in Washington, D. C. And here I am now.
(Microphone change)
AJ: My name is Alan Johnson. I reside in Horham. I was born there in 1936. My interest started, I suppose, in 1943 when the Americans first came. My mother was very desirous to make them at home. We used to have GI’s to dinner on Sunday. And my grandmother was also chief of the Friendship Club in _________________ whereby GI’s would go down there and have tea and company and whatnot. Ever since then we’ve always kept up letter writing and associate with the GI’s. My sister still goes to see the crew chief in Mississippi who used to come to us during the war. His name’s Earl Adams. He’s now about 95 I believe. In the early, no late ‘70’s we wanted to try to do something about the base for the airfield. We didn’t have a control tower, which many of them have got – you know ________________ and _____________________. But we knew about the murals. So we thought, well, it would be nice to preserve them for posterity. We worked hard. We raised some money. We covered them up, because the tin was gone. But then somehow interest went. The 95th were keen to have a museum there, but then they went to other things. I think they had museum put in other places. And interest waned. But in my heart it was my hope that one day we could restore them. So, I used to go up there for 20 odd years and cut the grass and hope that something would happen. Well now you’ve heard about the Heritage Association, and John Blott came on board. And a dream came true. It was hard work, but if you have a contract to do something, if somebody gave you a million pounds, they did all the work for you, it wouldn’t be the same as doing it yourself. Because it’s all part of the pleasure, I think, of the job. Money is not everything, is it? It’s the involvement and people working together. Well you heard Frank say that we have achieved, I think, a miracle. We had no mechanical means. Digging was done with a spade and a fork. Iron was straightened with a sledgehammer. (chuckle) All the good old ways. I dug drains – they were ______________ in some cases. But we got there. As to the future, well, we hope that people like Jamie and the young ones carry on when we go. I think they will. History has a habit of maybe missing a generation, and then coming back again. So, we’ve had events. We’ve had quiz shows. The atmosphere in the place is good. We are missing heating. We can’t have a winter event because we have no heating _____________. We can’t store documents until we get heat, because of the damp in the concrete building. But I’m optimistic for the future. So, that’s what I have to say.
JM: You were one of the original friends of the 95th?
AJ: Yes.
JM: Can you talk a little bit about those early years – how you got started and…
AJ: Well I think it probably started when __________________ Roger Freeman. Although we kept up an association with our wartime friends, it didn’t seem history enough to want to restore things – old buildings. It was recent history. But I think Roger Freeman probably set the trend by his books. And then we thought, well, we’d like to do something. But all we had was this building with murals. So raised money. And we did restore it to keep the water out for future reference. My brother was very much involved then. And ____________________________________. But we did have several reunions and the first one was when I first saw David T. McKnight. I think it was in 1982, I believe. We had a memorial designed and built in the set of a B-17 tile. I forget how many came to the reunion. That all fired people’s imaginations. Then the church, of course, which was feature of a lot of the GI’s – they used to worship there during the war. And we all know about Lefty and the bells, which came later. These are all the things, I think, escalated because history doesn’t become interesting until it get further way, does it? The more history it becomes, the more interest we get. Like that old vehicle thing: when it rusts away in the corner, we restore it. When it’s in good order, we don’t bother. (chuckle) The same ____________________.
JM: So how many are now involved in the Heritage Association?
FS: How many members?
JM: Uh-huh.
FS: Well no, you mean general members, don’t you? We’ve got somewhere over a hundred. I think perhaps up to about 140 members now – paid up members of the association. And we’re now getting some coming in where, because we use e-mail quite a bit, and where they’ve been in touch with me, got interested, or I’ve met them and shown them ‘round. Various ones, you know, relations probably to veterans, and said they’d like to join as members of our association, which is only 5 pounds per year, anyhow. And so we’ve had several come in from America to become members as well. Probably we’ll get more as people become involved for the sake what little it costs. They just feel they’ll the newsletter, which we’ve got somebody doing a newsletter at the moment, about every three or four months. Just a small newsletter, which we hope to increase as we get more members and more going on.
JM: Do most of your members have a personal connection? Do they live in the area?
FS: Well yes. I mean, they’re not all local people. I’ve got people down from the other side of England, if it means anything to you, down to Cornwall, down in the west country. And Somerset, we’ve got members from there. And some of them will venture up to our opening days as well. And down in Kent to the south of England. And when you ask them what connections, they’ve either met a 95ther at some time and kept contact with them, and they’re interested. Some of them have been receiving newsletters for a few years. Others have joined in recent years through connections of meeting different veterans or relations to veterans and become interested. And we do try and work closely with other groups. This is important. I like to see more of this, working closely with the 390th of which, of course, the 95th is well familiar as they were there before they arrived at Horham. And so most of the veterans know the 390th at Framlingham. So we work closely with them, and with Ian Hawkins, who not only does a lot for the 390th and does their newsletter. And one or two people now like Helen and people like that do actually have the newsletter because they’ve become members. And also with the 100th Bomb Group. These two groups flew with the 95th quad there. So it’s important. And as we thought there’s getting fewer veterans, unfortunately, and bringing more families in, then perhaps it’s more important to work closer together so we still keep a biggish organization. At one time, perhaps, we might amalgamate, if membership does go down. But it’s also something we can look at. As I say, we can all learn something by helping one another with other museums as well as ourselves. And so we’re quite happy to advertise the other museums, and they advertise us. I take folders and leaflets into several other museums so they’ll be on, they’ll be on shelves in the museums and people pick them up and then they say, “Oh, we’ll come to Horham.” So it’s all good. And then with extra donations probably, you know, which all help. That’s important, I think.
JM: Is there anything that any of you would like to record for the future generations – any stories, any bits of information that might be useful?
DW: This is Dudley Wood. Not at the moment. I’m still a greenhorn. Maybe next time ‘round I might have a bit more to say on that.
(Microphone transfer)
AJ: The part that we feel is our duty at the Red Feather Club is to, well, it’s all part of the Heritage agreement. That we have to make a road for education for school children to come ‘round and look. Maybe even have classes for them. And I think this is all an important part of what we’re doing. It’s all part of the future generations that they know what’s happened. And perpetuate the whole thing. And this is all part of our responsibility towards the Heritage lottery grant. It’s an agreement that we have to abide by to educate the young people of what happened. To me that’s a very important thing.
JM: Well I know that the relationship that the 95th has with all of you in England is so important and is such a deep sense to the whole reunion and getting together and the whole fabric of the 95th. It’s been a wonderful marriage of Horham and United States, and we’re all so grateful for all the work that you do over there, and for your efforts in coming to our reunions and welcoming us into your homes. We hope that this relationship will continue to grow as the next generations come into the picture. So thank you very much for all that you’ve done and all that you are doing, and I know all that you will continue to do.
FS: Thank you for all that you’ve done. We’ve had a lot of help from your people as well, particularly from Helen. I must mention Helen. She’s helped me a lot with the important things – the photographs which are getting rarer and you know, probably getting lost in families. And she’s helped me with over 100 crew photographs in 12 months, which I wanted her to do. And they’re on our web site. And I hope you’ve got our web site.
JM: Thank you so much.