Willard Brown

95th BOMB GROUP (H) ASSOCIATION

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

2000 REUNION ORLANDO, FLORIDA 

The following was recorded on September 15, 2000 in Orlando, Florida. The interviewer is Russ McKnight. Also present: Janie McKnight, Nancy McKnight Smith, Ernest Hammesfahr. 

BB: Probably the only reason for, the principal reason for passing on this information, and talking about oneself and the experiences is really a quotation from Aristotle, which always impressed me and it read, “The responsibility of those with knowledge is to pass on the good, the noble, and the true to the next generation.” This is the only reason for living, to see that we do pass on the finest to the next generation. That does not mean it will be accepted, but it will be received politely, and you do have the satisfaction of knowing you’ve given it your best shot.

RM: Thank you, Bill. I’d just like to say at this point that this is Russ McKnight and Janie McKnight and today we have the pleasure of interviewing Willard “Bill” Brown and we are in Orlando, Florida, and it is September 15, the year 2000. Bill, we were wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the perspective you gained even before World War II in your opportunity to visit Europe.

BB: Well, after graduation from Yale, my parents gave me a trip abroad, and I bicycled through Europe. And at that time, I was really shocked by the preparation for war. So shocked that, when I came back to this country, I gave up my acceptance to the Columbia University Medical School, and decided instead that I would become a lawyer, and maybe a politician, with the idea that I might be able to stop such nonsense. 

RM: And Bill, when you came back, I understand that you went on to organize a fraternity of like-minded people?

BB: Well, I came back and, at that time, there was organized the America First Committee at the Yale Law School and I joined up with that group, along with Bob Stewart, a classmate, to try to keep us out of the war. 

RM: And that was a widely held opinion in the United States at that time, was to let the European war be on its own. What made you ever change your mind about that?

BB: Well, the point was that, once we passed the Lend-Lease bill, and sent destroyers and other battleships to Great Britain, I felt that we were in the war. And they had made such a commitment and it was my duty to volunteer, which I proceeded to do. 

RM: So that probably brings us up to a couple of questions that we’d like to ask. Just for the record, could you tell us, Bill, what were your dates of service in the Army Air Corps?

BB: It was 1941 to 1945. I might add that the concern and guilt I felt about joining up with the America First Committee was somewhat mollified by Churchill himself. It was after the war, about two years after it ended, Churchill noted that it was the most inexcusable war in the history of man costing some 50 million lives of which 30 million were civilian. The first time in history when a war caused more civilian than military deaths. The reason he thought it was inexcusable was that the combination of the French and the English resources were way beyond that of the Germans, and if they’d only accepted Hitler’s challenge, they could have completely overwhelmed him. 

RM: What was your job in the 95th Bomb Wing?

BB: That of the Wing Navigator.

RM: Where did you receive your training?

BB: I received my training first, beginning as a cadet in Montgomery, where you had that orientation course. And I expected to be a pilot, because I was a private pilot, and had flown quite a bit. But when they tested my eyes, it was before the draft, and they tested my eyes and I didn’t have the 20/20 vision that was required. So, they assigned me to Navigation school out in Sacramento, California. And I remained there for two years as an instructor. 

RM: I see. So, you actually were a Navigation instructor that much time before the war?

BB: Well, this was 1941, and then of course we got into the war. You know that date. And so, we were in the war and I was an instructor, and I felt somewhat frustrated, and felt that I should get into combat, and finally was able to get an assignment into a B-17 Flying Fortress group that was being formed around Ephrata and also Rapid City, South Dakota. And that’s where I met Dave McKnight, Al Wilder, [Alan W Wilder] and other fellas that we became very closely related to. 

RM: Did you go over at about the same time as those early officers?

BB: Well, yeah, we all trained together and then the next thing, we were assigned to go to England, and we were assigned to these Forts. We were then assigned to move to England and we flew down to Florida, and then to Trinidad, and Trinidad to Belem [in Brazil] – Belem is the most eastern port of South America – and from Belem, we flew across, a night flight, to Dakar [now in Senegal], and from Dakar up to Marrakech [in Morocco], and from Marrakech on up to England.

RM: That must have been just a great adventure.

BB: Well, it was a great adventure, because we made the flight without landing in the Atlantic. And that’s a long flight from Belem to Dakar. And for me wonderful [inaudible] because we did that through celestial navigation and fortunately my watch was correct. And so, it was very successful from a navigational standpoint. 

RM: What do you do on a night when you can’t see the stars?

BB: Well, of course you fly at the highest altitude that you can then to get above the clouds. But otherwise, that was really the principal source of navigation that we had. You couldn’t do it by pilotage, and it was too long to just do it by dead reckoning. So, you had to have some reference points, and the stars and a good watch was a very accurate way of doing it. 

RM: Bill, I understand that you flew with General Forrest [Nathan B. Forrest] when General Forrest was trying a new type of formation for gunnery coverage of the sky.

BB: Yes. And he also joined a number of other people who had been sent over, such as Colonel Spivey [Delmar T. Spivey] and Colonel Kennedy [W.L. Kennedy]. And they were all gunnery officers. Their principal concern was the fact that the guns, they weren’t ejecting their bullets right, improper lubrication. And I was really more concerned with that than I was with formation flying. And, of course, the formation flying represented a concern of his and ideas that he wanted to test to see if that would be helpful. So, those two things that were involved when I was flying with him. And he was in the lead plane, of course. And when we were shot down, he was actually in the nose of the plane where I was. And he was, at that time, checking the nose guns. And also, he was in the position to look at the formation.

RM: I see. I wonder if we could shift to another subject that you mentioned earlier to me. Bill, you mentioned that when you were in the camp where you were captured, that you lead some routines to help with the psychological resistance and the physical strength of the men. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

BB: Well, what I attempted to do was, to an extent you could call it cautious, really a routine that involved the selection of a number of fellas that were outstanding in terms of leadership and self-sufficiency and a concern for escape to be able to room together, which we did. Those fellas had certain expertise that I thought would be helpful in escape. The most important expertise was a certain sense of self confidence and belief in their ability to meet challenges, and a desire to escape. But in addition to that, certain particular talents, such as one fella obviously was expert in languages, and in German particularly. Another one had considerable knowledge about geography for the preparation of maps which you might use. Another one was a fella that actually knew something about tailoring, about the making of clothes, and the dying of clothes, so that you had the proper disguises, that you looked like a civilian and not like an escaped prisoner of war. And we put together all those so-called skills that some of us might have and we could share in, in hopes that whatever preparations we could make for escape, and the skills that might be required, at least we had some exposure to them. The background to this whole escape effort was recognition that it was the duty of an officer to escape. And there was an organization within the camp so that whatever the escape efforts were, they were not in conflict, and you obviously didn’t proceed by way of escape without some clearance. And we had a senior officer in the camp that was responsible for that. But you didn’t make any overt action that might bring embarrassment to some other action that was taking place. So it was really a disciplined and very well organized. People knew that that was a duty of an officer to attempt to escape, but they wanted to make sure that the efforts were complimentary and supportive of each other.

RM: Could you intermingle with the British officers? Were the American officers and the British…

BB: Well, they were in separate compounds. There were two British compounds and two American compounds. And I was one of the first officers in the second American compound, the center compound. When I was shot down, I was first in the British camp, and then I was sent over to be one of the first in the officers in the so-called center compound, which was going to be the second American compound. So the association that I had begun first with the British, and then I continued that the best I could, and to some extent, there was an exchange where we were permitted to sometimes attend some of their theatrical performances. Or in my own particular case, I was permitted to, by the Germans, to debate with Roger Bushnell who was the hero in the movie “The Great Escape” and who was a lawyer. And the Germans permitted me to go into the camp where he was located to debate him. And he was superb at it, and had a marvelous sense of humor. I had a great respect and affection for the guy. And after the debates, the Germans also permitted me to go to his room for a brew for a cup of coffee. And that was where all the escape activities that you saw in “The Great Escape” or heard about in “The Great Escape” really took place, and where I had a chance to meet many of his companions because a great number of people were involved in the escape efforts. They were extremely capable, the British, and they also involved many of the flyers that were flying for the British such as the Czechs, the Poles, and the Free French, various nationalities that had been overrun in Europe by the Germans, and had fled to Great Britain to participate in the British war effort. And some of those fellas were shot down and it was quite an experience to be able to get to know some of those people. They’re outstanding people. 

RM: Were there obvious kinds of mistreatment by the guards, or not. Were you basically treated …

BB: Well, that was very much the exception. There might have been some treatment that some people might have considered highly inappropriate, a violation of the Geneva convention. But my awareness, as far as the Luftwaffe and that camp, was they made every effort to live within the Geneva convention and its rules in the treatment of prisoners. 

RM: Did you ever receive Red Cross packages, or mail from home?

BB: Yes, we had Red Cross packages that the Red Cross sent, and that was on a regular monthly basis, I believe it was. And also, the parents as I remember, we were allowed to get a package a month from the parents, which meant a great deal because, obviously they were sent some personal things and other things that might be of help to you. 

RM: How long were you in the camp?

BB: Well, I guess it was almost two years. I had the advantage of being not only in that camp, but then in Stalag 17, which was in Krems, Austria, on the Danube. And that was a case where the Germans had asked to have an officer, commissioned officer, help them in the management of that particular camp. It was made up of non-commissioned officers, and they wanted to have a commissioned officer there. And I volunteered to go there, and was sent down to Krems, which is on the Danube. It was an experience where I went down there and immediately began to organize it for escape efforts. I had the idea that we’d support Mahailovic in Yugoslavia, and so studied the railroad lines from Vienna down to Triest, and attempted to build up escape activities. 

Unfortunately, there was a German that was posing as an American sergeant, and was superb at it. I think he had been raised in the United States. Certainly, his accent was American. But he was German by birth and by heritage and was doing the job that he thought he was supposed to do. He heard about this effort that I had in mind and was working on. Of course, he reported that, and I was taken out of the camp and sent back north to the Stalag Luft 3 from which I had come. There was a movie on that called Stalag 17. Whether it involved my particular experience or not, I don’t know because I was never interviewed on it. But it did represent an effort that I’d made. It was unsuccessful on my part. In the movie, why they carried it to the extent where the German himself was shot, I believe. But I had no experience like that, except I did make every effort to organize that for escape along the lines that we had organized this camp in Stalag Luft 3. 

RM: That’s very interesting, Bill. As the war went on down, I understand your whole camp was moved westward, away from the eastern front?

BB: Yes, as the Russians broke through, we were evacuated to the west from [inaudible] and were marching day and night, mostly in daytime. And there are some stories on that which I can give you that were recorded in the press by other people on that particular evacuation. And it was during that march that the Germans seized General Vanaman, because he was on that march. He had been shot down, and he had been our assistant military attaché in Berlin and knew the key personnel in Berlin. They were told to bring him, and three so-called “deserving” officers with him – so-called staff. I was selected by the General to join him, along with, I think it was with Colonel Kennedy and Colonel Spivey and Captain George. We were sent to Berlin. 

RM: I was interested in the visit back to the west as war was closing down, and if that caused any health problems among the men, or yourself.

BB: They look upon the prisoners of war as sort of a bargaining asset. They were being evacuated to the west so they wouldn’t be taken by the Russians. There was some sense that we were being evacuated and trained down south to Bavaria. There was an effort, obviously, to end the war. That’s when the pulled Vanaman and the three of us out and brought us to Berlin, and out to Luckenwalde, we were led to believe, to meet with Hitler. Vanaman was obviously the spokesman and the primary asset they had, and we were along as his staff, the three of us. I like to call it staff, because there are many people. But I happened to be quite active in this escape business, and have spent quite a lot of time trying to develop this so-called school. I would hesitate to use the term school, because it was an association and I was just a Lieutenant with Majors and Captains, etc. I know they wouldn’t respond too well to the fact that they had a Lieutenant telling them what they ought to do. It was just a group of guys that were trying very hard to make the best of their assets and to make an escape which they thought was their responsibility and their duty. 

RM: Bill, can you remember the day when the final camp was liberated and tell us what that was like?

BB: Well, I wasn’t there. I was in Luckenwalde. The final days at the camp, so I am told, was that our forces broke through and the tanks arrived there, and the camp was opened up. 

RM: That must have been a thrilling experience. And were you still being held as a pawn for the…

BB: No, I think I was back in the states at that time. When the Germans sent Colonel [referred previously to as General Vanaman] Vanaman, Colonel Spivey, and Colonel Kennedy, I was put in the prisoner of war pool and the prisoners were being marched to Buchenwald. The mission to Berlin had failed, and I was thrown back into the prisoner of war pool there. Kennedy and General Vanaman were to be released and sent back to the states with this message of so-called surrender. But I had no idea whether he got back or not. So, I thought I had to escape again. And I did near a place called Beilngries. It wasn’t difficult because it was a marching column and I arranged to have some kind of a brouhaha in the column up ahead of me, so that the guards went up to stop that and I could easily goof off into the woods, which I did. At that time, we were told that we were going to be marched all the way down to Bavaria someplace. I had this message involving what the Germans were prepared to do by way of surrender. And I thought I should do what I could to get that through because I didn’t know if Vanaman got through. So, I went up into the hills there at a place called Beilngries overlooking the river there, I forget the name of the river. I was in a cave there, and Patton was coming through, and we were being bombarded by those 155’s and I was surrounded by Germans. I was able to work my way down through the woods, across the river, across this bridge that had been blown up and into our lines without getting shot, and they had me in Washington within 48 hours. I had the interesting experience of, when I arrived there, I asked to speak to the Intelligence Officer, and was told that he was not to be disturbed, that he was sleeping in the house that they could see. I said okay. About five or six years later, I was in New York having supper with a roommate of mine at [inaudible] and Yale. We had gone to [inaudible] school together. And he said why don’t you come to the apartment. I’ll take a shower and then we’ll have supper. And I went to the apartment and he said “I’m a great war hero, and here’s all my pictures.” And looking through his book, and Jesus, there is this picture of this damn bridge that had been blown up. I said “Windy, were you the Intelligence Officer?” He said “Yeah, I was the Intelligence Officer.” Well, he was the guy, my roommate, who was in the cottage and had refused to be woken up for this great message that I had. He was my roommate. Crazy incidences like that during the war.

RM: That’s a great story, Bill

BB: Unfortunately, Windy’s dead now. He died of a heart attack. He was a peach of a guy and we were great friends at Yale. And also [inaudible].

RM: Bill, you’ve mentioned that you think it’s very important for those that have experienced the war to share with those of us that haven’t, in an effort to try to avoid that kind of conflict. And I know you’ve talked with children or youth. Could you tell us a little bit about your thoughts and your efforts along those lines?

BB: Well, it was not really with children. It was people at least of high school and college level. You talk with them as to their responsibilities as a citizen and their responsibilities to provide so-called leadership with the educational opportunities that they’ve had. So, you do get in the subject of leadership. That’s a very difficult thing to define. I’ve found that extremely difficult in trying to prepare courses on the subject. I know that there’s a case right now where they, in this particular school, where they’re attempting to define what the purpose of the school is by way of education. Once we use the word leader, then try to find a couple of words about what you mean by the word leader. It’s almost impossible. I have an article here on leadership, which just came out in Business Week this month on the ability to really define leadership as such. I hesitate to quote it until I really understand it better. I have to read it several times, because it’s a very, very difficult thing to define. It’s an experience that has different facets to it in any one given situation. But the main thing is, the first requirement of leadership is willingness to take a risk. And this is why it is so difficult to teach, because in teaching, people don’t take risks. There’s no accountability in that sense. If that is the whole essence of the spirit of leadership, it’s difficult to ask the person who has never been trained or exposed or encouraged to take risks to really teach it. It’s a hell of a difficult subject in the first place. 

[break in tape]

BB: Two guys in the group that I was particularly fond of, and got to know even though I was a Navigator and had to take orders from both those guys.

[Inaudible comments from interviewers]

BB: We had a wonderful experience in that whole damn business and hell, Dave (McKnight) and I, for God’s sake, you wouldn’t believe it, we used to run together in the mornings. We were very close friends. That was difficult in some ways in wartime, particularly difficult between a Captain and a First Lieutenant. It wasn’t at all, I’m just kidding, but you do have this command situation and, in the military, you have to careful you don’t become too friendly. You can’t afford it. The discipline requires a certain remoteness. Read all the books on the subject, and they’ll point that out. A lot of the fellas would like to be very friendly with some of their juniors in command and they know that we just can’t afford it because the discipline has to be maintained under circumstances which require immediate response – no argument or no discussion.

NMcKS: What do you point to before the war, that prepared you unknowingly for what you were going to experience?

BB: Well, the thing that really sort of got me was, I was going into medicine. And I used to work for Dr. George Crile the famous fellow at the [Cleveland] Clinic that you read all about the country, because I wanted to be a surgeon. I even took up banjo lessons so I could get my fingers so I could do all this business with the stitches you know. He assigned me to a slaughterhouse in Cleveland for the summer. I was supposed to go there and hit the cattle over the head with a sledgehammer, and I was supposed to go in with a scalpel and extract all the optic nerves – take the eyes out. In the evening I was supposed to bring him a whole thing full of optic nerves, because the optic nerves is the highest concentration of protein in the body. And now you read in the newspapers, this whole thing of the genetic evolution of man. It’s largely concentrated in the protein structure. And this was Dr. George Crile back in about 1938 – 39. I remember he had asked me to see an operation. Would I like to see that? “Yes, Doctor, I’d love to see you operate.” And he was the expert in goiters. And goiters would frame the whole throat here and went to see this operation. This poor lady was there under ether and her whole throat exposed and inflated, you see. I saw that knife go across, and the next thing I knew, I was looking at a woman’s white shoes and white stockings (laughter). I dead fainted absolutely dead away. I was carried out. I was never so humiliated in my life. And then he told me not to be upset. He said Dr. Harvey Cushing was one of the famous surgeons, he’d been there. And his first operation, he had collapsed, but he had struggled out the room, and had collapsed as he approached the elevator shaft and was found hanging over the elevator shaft. And that was Dr. Cushing. That’s how he started his surgery. So, this was the encouragement he gave me to keep right at it. What a humiliating story. 

RM: But that didn’t have anything to do with you turning to the law after that.

BB: No, the reason I turned to the law was that I traveled throughout Europe on a bicycle trip. And I thought, Jesus Christ, these guys are going to go to war. And the last thing I wanted to see us was to get involved in the war. And so, I gave up the Medical School and went to Law School at Yale, and that’s where we started the America First Committee, to keep us out of it. Then I was so embarrassed about that. My mother and father, God, they thought it was terrible thing. And so, I felt that after that, particularly after they passed the Lend-Lease bill, then I thought we were in the war, you see. Then I immediately volunteered, I felt I had to volunteer for every goddamn thing, all the way through escape and all that stuff, to prove my patriotism. The one thing you don’t do in the military, the first law you’re taught: Don’t volunteer. [laughter] So that got me in trouble. That meant that I was always – I could afford to do it – I had no commitments back home- and it was particularly tough on the guys who were married and had families. They just had this conflict, very understandable serious conflict of what the hell risks should you take which compromise your sense of loyalty and your sense of commitment to your family. I thought it was terribly tough on those guys.

NMcKS: Probably not here, but maybe over dinner, I hope that you’ll talk a little bit about Al Wilder because Daddy [David McKnight] was so fond of him, and I can remember after the war, going to visit his parents, which must have been a hard thing to do.

BB: Well then David flew into Cleveland and picked me up, and we went on to Al’s funeral in Long Island, because when his body was brought back, it was washed ashore or something, why they had a funeral for him there in Long Island and David flew into Cleveland and picked my up and we flew on to that funeral. I’m sure we did a slow roll, or some goddamn thing on the course of that flight [laughter].

RM: Bill, on behalf of the Legacy Committee, I’d like to thank you very much for coming from Cleveland to Orlando and sharing with us your stories, both this morning and this evening, helping us capture the oral history of some of the events that happened. We really appreciate it. Thank you very much.

BB: I think it’s really very important to pass on as much of this as you can. You guys have a heritage here, and it’s a glorious one. Anything that I can do to provide some details and explanations so that you feel and appreciate just how significant that heritage is. I’d like to make that effort. I was just really fortunate to survive when some of my very close friends just didn’t. That’s in the hands of the gods. All the fellas that I had and learned to get to know in the Air Force represented the supreme effort on the part of the individual to be frankly a first class, responsible citizen.