Paul Baird

95TH BOMB GROUP (H)

ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

2002 REUNION          ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI 

Interviewed by Karen Sayko

KS: Name, date, and where we are today.

PB: Paul R. Baird. And what else did you want?

KS: The date, and where we’re at.

PB: The date is September 13, and we’re at St. Louis. You sound like my doctor.

KS: Okay, just to get some basic things on the record, what were your dates of service with the Army Air Corps?

PB: From July 15, 1942 to August 6, 1946.

KS: How about your dates of service with the 95th?

PB: We landed in Prestwick, Scotland on D-Day. But it took another day to get to the 95th. So, it would have been about June 7, 1944. 

KS: And which squadron were you in with the 95th?

PB: Started in the 412th, and then later on, moved to the 335th. 

KS: And what was your principal job with the 95th?

PB: I was co-pilot on a B-17 crew. 

KS: We’d like to go back to the beginning. When did you join up, and why?

PB: Isn’t that all on there? 

KS: We want it on tape, though.

PB: I was sworn on the steps of Old Main at State College, July 15th of 1940. And what else do you want?

KS: Why did you join?

PB: Now, wait a minute. I joined because of Pearl Harbor and the advance of the war.

WP: Paul, this is Walt Powell, a friend of Paul’s that’s coming in here at this point. Paul, you mentioned you enlisted, you were sworn in at Penn State University, the Old Main building in State College, and that was July of ‘42, is that correct? Summer of ‘42. And as I recall, you had said you first learned, became interested in enlisting after you hear about the news of Pearl Harbor? You couldn’t enlist right away. Was there a reason for that, why you didn’t sign up right after December 7th?

PB: That’s a good question. I can’t answer it. I don’t know why the lag between December 7th and July of ‘42. I’m not quite sure why.

WP: You were working at that point at Penn State.

PB: Yes.

KS: What were you doing at Penn State?

PB: I worked in the accounting office at Penn State.

KS: How old were you at that time?

PB: I was 22 – 22 a week after I was inducted.

KS: How about your training? Where did you take that?

PB: I took pre-flight at Santa Ana in California. And then moved up in the San Joaquin Valley to Visalia, California for primary flight training. Subsequently moved over to Lamour, California for basic flight training, and subsequently moved to La Junta, Colorado for advanced flight training. 

KS: What was your training like?

PB: The first part, the primary flight training, was sheer murder. I had an awful time. My instructor said I would never make a pilot, never be a pilot. He was afraid to solo me - he was afraid to put me up for solo because he thought I’d kill myself. He was wrong, of course. But he may have been right about the fact that I was not the best pilot to come down the pike. But after getting through primary, the road smoothed out fine. I had no problem in basic. I soloed in the normal time. And when I went to advanced, I had no trouble there. We flew in teams of cadets, and my team mate, a fellow by the name of Mayo Baker, and myself, were the first two put up for a check ride solo on the B-25. They were flying B-25's at that time. When it came time for me to go up for a solo ride, my instructor - I was up with my instructor. So, they took the next pair of cadets, whoever they were, and soloed them. So, they were the first to solo in our class. And Mayo Baker and I were the second to solo. So, everything went fine after primary.

KS: Any memorable experiences during training?

PB: Yes. I darn near fell out of the plane. We were flying PT-22s, which is an open cockpit, low wing monoplane. And I’d like to throw in at this point that my instructor had no time for Ryan aircraft or Kenner engines. His frequent comment was “The only thing I hate worse than a Ryan aircraft is a Kenner engine.” And then sometimes he would turn it around the other way and say “The only thing I hate worse than a Kenner engine is a Ryan aircraft.” But anyway, it was an open cockpit, low wing monoplane. And I damn near fell out of it when I was up solo, because I did a snap roll. It was a very good snap roll - pinned me right to the seat, as it should have. I was so pleased with it, I thought I’ll do that again. So, I tried it a second time, and what started out to be a snap roll, turned out to be a slow roll. And a slow roll does not pin you to the seat. And when I got upside down, I came out of the seat, and dropped about six inches or so out of the seat before I caught something in the cockpit and managed to stay in the plane, while visions of walking back to the base with my parachute in my arms flashed through my head. But that didn’t happen. I was able to get the plane over - upright. And of course, once I got it upright, the centrifugal pressure stopped. And I was okay. But that stuck in my mind, and I did not again forget to fasten my seatbelt.

KS: How did you get over to England?

PB: We flew a new plane over.

KS: And what route did you take?

PB: We took the northern route. We left out of Savannah, Georgia; went to New York City; at New York City we decided the engines weren’t running very well, so we stopped at Fort Dix and asked them to check the engines. And we went in to New York City, and spent the night in New York City. Our navigator was a native of the Bronx, so we had a very nice time. And the next day, although they couldn’t find anything wrong with the engines - they ran fine. Can’t understand why they happened to run rough as we got near New York City.

KS: I can’t imagine why either (laughing).

PB: But they ran fine the next day, and we went on up to Massachusetts - forgotten the name of the base in Massachusetts. But we stopped there, and they piled the plane full of all kinds of material - supplies for overseas. They figured as long as the plane’s flying over there, may carry some equipment along with it. So the standard procedure, they loaded us up with whatever they wanted us to take. And then we went on up to Goose Bay, Labrador, where they, when we stopped at Goose Bay it was a beautiful, warm, sunny day. And my recollection is that when I leaned out the window, the guy who was parking us said dilute the engines for three minutes. Now that meant pump oil into the cylinders to keep the cylinders from freezing up. And I couldn’t believe my ears, because the last thing that I thought of was snow and cold weather. And I asked him again, and he says yeah, there’s a blizzard coming. And he was right. Before the day was over, we were in the middle of a blizzard. We stayed there for two days, I guess it was, before we moved on after this storm passed by. We flew to Greenland - a place called Bluie West, Greenland. Bluie West was an interesting little airfield, and staging area up in fjord on the coast of Greenland. From there, we went to – incidentally, we got weathered in there, too, for another two days. And then when that storm passed by, we left there and flew all night one night and the next morning we arrived in Prestwick, Scotland. And it was as we taxied out to Bluie West 1, the tower called us on the radio and advised all planes that the invasion had begun that morning.

KS: What was your reaction to that news. 

PB: Well, we knew it was going to come. We just didn’t know when, of course. But I guess our reaction was, uh-oh, now we’re in - so far it’s been play and practice. But now it looks as though we’re going to have to face the real thing. So, we told the boys to be alert and to watch for any suspicious aircraft, which really was not necessary because there were no German airplanes operating anywhere near the route that we were taking. But it made it, it brought home very clearly that now play time is over, and we go to work. 

KS: How long after you got to Horham did you go on your first mission?

PB: About a month, as I recall. Our first mission was on July 6th, but we had engine trouble - real engine trouble - not something that we made up. And we had to turn back. So we aborted our very first effort. And the next day, July 7, became our first mission.

WP: This is Walt Powell just cutting in here. Paul, I think, according to Frank Dement from [unintelligible] crew, a good friend of yours, your crew, [unintelligible] crew, came back with #4 engine out on the 7th. Does that sound right?[1]

PB: On the 7th? Yes, yes. 4

WP: Dement says maybe someone upstairs was looking after you. 

PB: Yes, we thought so because - and now we’re talking about the first mission on July 7th. What happened was, as we started the bomb run, and a flak burst hit the #1 engine - #4 engine - I forget which way they numbered them. It was #4 engine - the outboard right engine. And we had to break out of the formation, feather the engine, and salvo the bomb load. So, we probably plowed up some German farmer’s field for him. And we came back on our own. We couldn’t keep up with the group. And they quickly ran away from us, and we were left to plod along through the German skies, home by our self. And I still can’t understand why the Germans let a crippled B-17 fly completely across the country without a sending up a couple of fighters to knock us down. But they didn’t. 

KS: Where was the target that day? And the first mission is usually what they referred to as a milk run, but it certainly wasn’t for you.

PB: No, it was not a milk run for us. It may have been for the rest. Koldea? Is that the name of the target? K-o-l-d-e-a … something like that.[2] It’s up in the Baltic Sea coast. Pretty long haul, but we, as I say, as we came back, we came right across the heart of Germany. We were being very careful to avoid any cities or any areas where we thought there might be fighter interception. But it never happened. We just limped along until we got to the coast. We tried to slide through a gap in the German defenses, which we had been told about when we were briefed, when we left on the mission. And which, on the way in, we went through that gap beautifully. But when we tried to come back out through that gap, the Germans had moved a flak barge into the middle of the bay or whatever it was. And they had a pretty good shot at us. But we got through their flak guns, and spent the rest of the afternoon trying to creep along across the channel. 

KS: So, what was the landing like on that mission?

PB: The landing was alright. We did not land at our own base, because we ran out of - ran very low on fuel. So, when we reached England, we asked them to vector us to the nearest airfield, which they did. It turned out to be an English, British airfield. The landing was alright. We just didn’t fly a normal landing pattern. We were so low on fuel; we didn’t figure we could spend any extra time. So, we just came straight in, landed, and were glad to get down. 

KS: Any of the other missions stand out in your mind?

PB: Oh yes, for various reasons. There are two to Munich very early in our tour. They were long missions - about nine-hour missions. Maybe a little more than that. But nothing too bad. We took a little battle damage, but that didn’t really bother us very much, other than to scare us. There were a couple in there that were kind of interesting. There’s one in there - I forget which one it is.

WP: The one to Hamm[3], the one October 28th?

PB: I’m thinking of the one where we dropped supplies to the French Underground – to the Maquis.

[Unintelligible]

KS: How did those drops to the Maquis go?

PB: Oh, that was lovely. It was to a place down close to the French and Swiss border. It was beautiful country. The Alp mountains - nice, green vegetation. And we were at 500 feet after we found the target area where we were supposed to drop the supplies. We dropped down to 500 feet above the ground. As we came across the drop zone, which was marked by a blazing haystack, they took a bundle of hay - a bale of hay, or whatever you want to call it - and set it on fire, and that marked where we were to drop the supplies. And when we dropped the supplies, the sun was shining, the day was beautiful and there were no fighters, no opposition. But as soon as we dropped over the target area, we shot out over the mountain and were over a valley. One second, we were only 500 feet above the ground, and the next second, we were about fifteen to a hundred to 2000 feet. And we were looking down at a valley in the Alps mountains just short of Switzerland. And I remember how pretty it was - beautiful. Just like a picture postcard. But then there were some others. There were two TS [Top Secret] [4] missions in there where we dropped. 

[Inaudible]

PB: Yes, that was the day we broke out the troops. The Allied troops were having trouble breaking the German line, so they got the Air Force to drop the place in the line where they thought it would be a good place for them to break out. It was fairly early in our tour of missions. At that point, I guess to some extent on any mission after that, we never saw so many planes in close location as they pounded the German lines with fighters, medium bombers, and finally the heavy air bombers. That was the day – first day, that first one – what is it? TS- 18.

WP: TS-18 on July 24th.

PB: TS-19?

WP: Was on July 25th.

PB: Okay. TS-18 was the day we, unfortunately, killed General McNair[5] – one of our own Generals – because one group did not drop in the target area, and the bombs fell short, and several troops, including General McNair, were killed. But the next day - they sent us right back the next day to do the same thing all over again. And the next day it worked fine. It was after that second day that German troops by the thousands surrendered. It was a massive effort. There were a number of targets later on that were difficult – Magdeburg[6] was always a tough target. And Merseburg[7] was always a very difficult target to attack. There was an interesting one where we – which incidentally, the anniversary’s coming up next week - and that was the dropping of supplies to the Polish underground. And were a couple shuttle missions from England to Russia, from Russia to the Balkans, and Italy. And then from there back up through France, and to targets in France. That was kind of an interesting.

KS: I’m not sure if we’ve talked too much to crews that have been on the shuttle missions. Could you explain a little bit what that entails?

PB: Yes. Whereas, normally we took off from England, bombed the target in Germany or France – occupied France, wherever – and then returned to our base in England. This effort was - we dropped a town in Germany, and then, instead of turning back to England, we flew on east into Russia, where we had a base laid out and manned by a lot of Russian troops, many of whom were women – big, strong women, wielding picks and shovels and whatever they needed. But – what was I going to say?

?? They [unintelligible] the shuttle after landed in Russia. Did you fly another mission?

PB: That’s right. The next day they wanted us to - and it was probably a political maneuver - they wanted us to bomb a target just ahead of the Russian lines. And we did. We had an excessive drop in magnetos when we fired up the engines, so we had to scrub out of that mission. But then the following day they corrected that. And we took off and flew to a target down in the Balkans. It was a small target - just a railroad crossing, where two railroad lines crossed. But it was used for supplying the Axis troops. We spent a couple days in Italy - I guess they figured we needed a little rest. So, they gave us a couple of days off. We went swimming over in the Adriatic Sea and ate cantaloupes (chuckle) - just kind of relaxed. And then the following day we loaded up with the bomb load. I guess the Allies had already invaded southern France - maybe not. Anyway, we had a target in France - a German airfield. And then on up to England.

WP: Could that be [unintelligible]

PB: Yes. The first one that we were on. It was the second time that the group had done that. 

KS: Any crew members that were outstanding in your mind, other than the guy that visited the Bronx?

WP: He was probably the outstanding crew member, wasn’t he?

PB: Yes. He was the character. If you know any guys from the Bronx, you can tell them because they’ll say, “What did you do with the bah-el?” Or, “When you want to take off, be sure you open the thrah-el.” And he was - it wasn’t so much his speech that tickled us. He was just a character.

WP: For the record, Paul, his name – your navigator – you called him Murph. But his real name was, his full name was...

PB: Elmer Joseph Murray.

WP: He’s in that crew shot that you have.

KS: Speaking of nicknames, how did you get the nickname “Grem?”

PB: (Laughing) Well, yes, I can tell you that. When I crewed up down in MacDill Field, Florida, we were told to meet at a certain area down along the hangar line, and we would meet our aircraft commander. So, I guess maybe I was the last one to appear. Everybody else was already there. And the guy I was to report to was a pretty big fella - tall, and pretty raw boned. And of course, I’m very short. I was about the minimum height acceptable – or the maximum height acceptable for flying. So, I was the last one to show up. I said, I’m Lt. Baird. I’m your co-pilot. And he tipped his hat back on his head and sort of glared at me and said - now all the rest of the guys were standing around there. He said, “Oh my gosh, would you look at the ground...” No, he didn’t use the ground... “Would you look at the gremlin they wished on me!” And it stuck. Even though I left that crew, the name Gremlin stuck with me.

KS: I notice that you have 29 missions. Did something happen?

PB: Yes. We were supposed to fly 30. But one - the next shuttle mission - when we left Italy to return to England, we did not carry bombs. We carried lots of cantaloupes and watermelons and things like that, but

KB: Didn’t one of the crews take a ...

PB: A donkey? Yes, yeah. That had already happened. So that we flew without any bombs, and were hardly over enemy held territory at any - maybe for a few brief moments. Because by that time, the Allied forces had pushed their way up into France until there was not much target area to work with. So, when they came to the end of the year, they called my navigator and myself down to operations. And neither of us knew why they wanted to see us. But when we got there, they said we’re not going to give you credit for a mission on that trip up from Italy to England, but we will count it toward the completion of your tour. So, what happens - you’re finishing your tour with 29 missions instead of 30. But we’re giving you a “freebie.”

KS: You didn’t give cantaloupes to the right person. (Laughing) I know you’re from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and you must have a sense of the Civil War history. Did you have a sense of the history that you were making at that time, or have you gathered a sense of that history?

PB: Well, I think I didn’t have a feeling of making history at that time. I was just scared to death of living through it. I didn’t have any particular feeling of making history. But we were, that’s true. But it didn’t register as much as some of the other emotions. 

KS: What were those other emotions?

PB: Fear, and fear, and fear. Like what do they say in real estate business? Location, location, location - three important things. So every mission was a threat. You never knew which one was going to be your last one. I’m sure you’ve talked to lots of guys who were shot down or wound up as prisoners. But we didn’t have that. We got through it very successfully, I think. 

KS: You’ve faced a lot of things, and you’ve mentioned fear, and I know you don’t claim the term “hero,” but is there anything that you saw that you’d consider a heroic act?

PB: Oh, in our crew, you mean?

KS: In your crew, or somebody else.

PB: No, I really don’t. We were just a crew of 10 as it started out who had a job to do, and we went about doing it. I think we did it fairly well. But as somebody once said when he was asked about “were you a hero?” And he said no, but I flew with a lot of heroes. And I think that was a pretty good way to put it. 

WP: Paul, I know there isn’t a lot of time with this interview segment, but you’ve often said a lot about your pilot, Gordy Braund, and your comments about him - something about your feelings about him. 

PB: Oh yes. He was a great kid, and an excellent pilot. Both Gordon and I had four engine pilot rating. So, either one of us could have been first pilot, and the other one co-pilot. But Gordon had more experience with the B-17 than I did. I had more experience with the B-25 than he did, but that didn’t count because we were flying B-17's. So, Gordon was the first pilot and I was the co-pilot, and that was just the way it should have been. He was a better pilot than I was. 

KS: How long have you been coming to the reunions?

PB: Oh, let’s see. When did I attend the first one? Down in Orlando, Florida, I think. But that was a long time ago. That was not the last Orlando reunion.

KS: What to you is the most important benefit from the reunions?

PB: To spend some time with the guys with whom we went through a rather trying time. And now it’s good to get together without the threat of going into combat. It’s nice to enjoy talking and remembering old times.

KS: Is there anything else you’d like to add, for the record?

PB: Oh, if I had more time to think about it, I probably could think of something. But I’m pretty satisfied with the status quo. I get along – I play golf once a week, and football season’s coming up now, and I’ll see lots of football games. So, I’m pretty at peace with the world.

KS: I want to ask your daughter Kathy one quick question. I’ll take this off. Kathy, when you were growing up, did your father talk to you about his experiences in the war?

KB: Yes, he did. And it would be kind of a ritual. Whenever we would have steak for dinner, Daddy would tell us a story about his experiences during the war. So, my sister and I both kind of grew up hearing about that part of his life. And of course, we watched the movie “Twelve O’Clock High.” Anytime that was on TV we were allowed to stay up, no matter how late it was. And any time there was a book or anything that had to do with the B-17's, we were all interested in learning more about it.

KS: Well you know you’re very lucky because a lot of us did not get that experience. For some reason or another they just didn’t talk about it. I really it was mostly a matter of thinking that they hadn’t done anything special.

KB: Well yeah, that could be it. And Daddy didn’t present it in that way - you know, that he was a big hero, or anything like that. He was just sort of telling us stories about, like he would tell us stories about growing up - what he did as a kid. I’m sure that he doesn’t think that he did anything special. Like he said, they were just doing what they had to do - just kind of doing their job.

KS: Well I’m going to add for the record that this has been Karen Sayco from the Legacy Group talking with Paul Baird, family friend Walt Powell sitting in, and daughter Kathy. And we thank you all for your time, and we thank you for your service to our country.

[1] The pilot Baird flew with on 7/7/44 was G L Braund; Dement was with the Gillen crew but did not fly on 7/7/44.

[2] Kolleda-Merseburg, Germany

[3] Hamm, Germany

[4] During WWII, “TS” could mean Tactical Support or Top Secret. In this case it is likely Top Secret, referencing the supply drops to the French Maquis du Limousin that took place at the base of the Alps in French territory – Operation Zebra / Salesman @ 25 June 1944 & Operation Cadillac @ 14 July 1944

[5] General Leslie James McNair

[6] Magdeburg, Germany

[7] Merseburg, Germany