David D. Webber
95TH BOMB GROUP (H) ASSOCIATION
95TH LEGACY COMMITTEE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT
1998 REUNION TUCSON, AZ
Interviewed by Nancy McK Smith, Russell McKnight & Karen Sayko.
DDW: David D. Webber, 12 September 98
NMcKS: Dave, let’s start off by talking about the dates of service that you were with the Army Air Corp.
DDW: 13 January 1943 until 27 November of 1946, the first trip.
NMcKS: What were your dates of service in the 95th?
DDW: 95th was July of 1944 and I don’t know the exact date, until July of 1945 or June of 1945 - 11 months.
NMcKS: Which squadron were you in?
DDW: 336th Squadron.
NMcKS: Your principal career field during that time?”
DDW: Started out as a bombardier and then because of my electrical engineering background - not a graduate by the way - they sent me to Alconbury to be a radar- navigator-bombardier, a mickey operator - which I completed - and so I flew the rest of my tour as a mickey operator - lead crew.
NMcKS: Let’s go back to the beginning and talk about your induction. How old were you and where were you living at the time?
DDW: I was 19 and was living in Seattle and took my basic training at Basic Training Center #8, Fresno Fairgrounds, California. The Japanese had just been moved out. It had been an internment camp when we got there. It was not a very pleasant place.
NMcKS: Were there any memorable experiences during the training time?
DDW: Training time? Yes, I had applied for cadets and 8 of the 16, the first alphabet, went to Santa Ana for preflight. They sent the second 8, of which I was a member - we went to Sheppard Field, Wichita Falls, and we found out that was basic training and I’d been teaching it for 3 months. I didn’t get into cadets for some time because we took basic training again. One of those freaks.
NMcKS: How did you get over to England?
DDW: I was assigned as a crew member to the Halcott B. Thomas crew as bombardier after graduation. We were assigned to B-17s at Lincoln, Nebraska, and we took our RTU, Replacement Training - at Dyersburg, TN, and we picked up our airplane at Kearney, Nebraska. We went to England by way of Goose Bay (Labrador), and Reykjavik[1] to Nutts Corner, Ireland. (Ha-Ha). That is still an active base, by the way - or was, a few years ago. Then from there we went by ship from Belfast to Liverpool to Stone which had been a minimum custody prison camp and was now a replacement center for incoming troops. We couldn’t figure out why the rooms had no doors. Well, they’d been cell doors and they’d taken them off. Then we went to 95th, fortunately. By, I guess, just out of luck.
NMcKS: How long was it before you started flying missions?
DDW: Oh, I think we started in August or early September because we had to train for 30 days. By the time we got there, they were extremely careful about crews flying their first mission and Hal Thomas flew his first mission with Wayne Hansen. A new pilot flew as a copilot with an experienced crew. So we all went down to see how our pilot had done - with Wayne. From there we started flying our missions and I flew 10 with the Halcott Thomas crew and then Thomas took over Jamie Philpot – Captain Philpot’s – who later became a 3-Star General - took over his lead crew. I went to Alconbury for radar training and our navigator became the command navigator. The copilot of our crew took over our crew as first pilot and we wouldn’t leave the crew unless the copilot was made first pilot. He was a very capable person. We knew it.
That took me to lead crew. I flew as a radar operator and we had a procedure whereby the radar operator - it was done with an oscilloscope - the same thing you used to see with the weather on TV, you’d see a weather scope. We could take the aircraft into the target and we could then set up what we call bomb rings and it was done orally with the bombardier. That say 20 miles from the target, we had a 20-mile ring and we would be on the course and the bombardier would set his rate index or his – the index meant the rate to release bombs – trigger the bombs, he would set it. And we would call out, “Coming up on 20; coming up on 20; 20; now”. Then he would push the button and the bombsite would start to work; then we’d say “Coming up on 18 – or 15” – we’re talking about miles from the target now. “Coming up on 15; ready; ready; now.” And he would make sure and if this wasn’t on what would be the 15 mile set he would adjust the bombsite. And we took it on down until we were maybe 5 miles from the target and that’s the last we could see. And then for us it was timing. But he had already set the rate and the telescope index so that - and then we would be listening and he would say, “Coming up on bombs away”. He’d say, “Bombs away” and I’d hit the button that would release the bombs and he’d hit - and the bombsite would release the bombs and the radio operator would be standing and he’d watch to make sure the smoke bombs went out and everyone dropped on our bombs. That’s the way it was done. Later, we found out one of the few good things that we were doing is that a group of us we had what was called an A-scope, it was a little tiny oscilloscope on the side of the main scope and that was used for calibration. When we were flying, we would notice that the glass on an A-scope would go like this, it would vibrate as the antenna went around and all of a sudden it would slow out and then it would just almost stop and then it would start up again. Well, we figured that that had something to do with the track of the airplane over the ground. And when the antenna was going down the track, the actual track of the airplane, no matter where it was headed it was going down that track, then we had the drift. So we could take from our heading the airplane’s heading with the our – I’ve forgotten the name of the compass – but it was a – but from that was a true heading and then the track of the airplane and that was the drift that had to be killed by the bombardier. Well, if he couldn’t see the ground he couldn’t kill the drift. So we found that by doing this, we could kill the drift better than he could. And we could bring him to the target with the airplane headed into the wind as it should be and going down and then all he had to do was to find the target – make what minor adjustments he needed. Well, we experimented with that, went up and flew many several of the fellows and that we wrote an article on – a book on – a training manual that later became Doppler Drift by Professor Doppler. He picked up what we had done and the B-29s and he made a special instrument that did all this that we had to do with this A-scope drifting. Only the Army’s APQ-13 system had the A-scope. The Navy had an APN-15 system - that was the name of the equipment - the number of the equipment - and it did not have an A-scope. So that’s the one that Professor Doppler made in the B-29s all those later used the Doppler but we had developed it just by chance and we actually could find the IP – find the target – and get the bombardier set up so that if the clouds broke in the last seconds all he had to do was make a couple of minor adjustments and he could hit it. Something that the Germans obviously couldn’t figure out. So anyway we felt very good about that. But that’s about the end.
The other thing that we did as a crewmember – they sent some equipment for our B-17s called the ILS – the instrument landing system. It had never been used; it was experimental. The 95th got a couple of ILS ships or aircraft – it was installed so on the darkest, worst nights they would send us out to do the ILS because we couldn’t cheat. And we flew the ILS and it was really one of the great things. They’re still using it today. And somewhere in the Air Force Art, they had original artists that painted for the Air Force, somewhere in one of those, there’s an aircraft doing an ILS experimental and I think it’s got a square B on the tail. So if you could find it - the Air Force has got hundreds of paintings, but one of those, and I saw it at the terminal in Fairbanks and I tried to get it from them – this is years and years ago. I’m sure it would be almost impossible to get it now, but it showed the B–17doing the ILS experimentation in England. As I recall it was a Square B on the tail. So, we did that. Those are the good things that ... And then we flew the men on a Chow Hound. And we felt very good. But I had no terrible experiences. I had the usual experiences that everybody had but your Dad and some of the others, they got the fighters. We got the flak. We consider that it was good pay. The best pay I ever received. I was working for 85 cents an hour when I was drafted and a First Lieutenant’s pay ran about $280/$300 I guess maybe. That was the best money I’d ever received. We were living high. And they gave us our clothes and food and all the good things. Getting shot at was just incidental.
RMcK: Those dark landings with the very first ILS systems were pretty brave too, I think.
DDW: Well, not really. We trusted that equipment. We knew it was experimental but we really couldn’t see. They had FIDO if we had to - FIDO, maybe you knew - was kerosene cans down the runway - and they would light those if you couldn’t find the runway. Or we had DARKIE-DARKIE was the RAF’s. They took the search lights and you’d call for “Darkie-Darkie” and they would lay down a search light, if there were no Germans in the air, and you’d fly that search light and then another one would pick you up and fly you over here and then finally you’d get home. All that was during that period when everyone was experimenting. So anyway that’s the way it worked out. But we always felt good when we were doing something that was we thought would be important. The bombing was necessary but this other was important.
NMcKS: Would you tell us a little bit more about your crew?
DDW: I had two crews. Thomas - that crew - I guess that Hal and I were closer than brothers. It was a great crew. Second crew, which was the lead crew - I didn’t - it’s on the record - I really didn’t care for that second crew because they did some things – I didn’t think the morality was right and I wouldn’t go live with them - good crew, great pilot, and the tail gunner and I are very close friends now but the first crew was always your......
NMcKS: The stories you told are so important, our other questions seem inconsequential but are there any funny incidents or acts of courage that....
DDW: We had no acts of courage. We just did what we were told. Were we scared?
Yes – we were scared – some people became incapacitated - but everyone has some fear or apprehension. Under fire we had no apprehension. If you’re under fire you knew what was happening and you didn’t have to worry. It was either going to happen or not happen but before that you could have your apprehension. Or afterward, you might have some.
Funny things - there were so many funny things - I really couldn’t begin - I suppose one of the most interesting was when we got to Russia - we were on that shuttle run and I didn’t tell you but Wayne Hansen was on our wing. We were all under heavy fire and we broke formation. It was everyone for themselves because we couldn’t find the markers -- that the Germans had overrun the Poles pretty much -- and the Russians were shooting at us from across the river, we could see that, too. But anyway, I looked out at Wayne Hansen; I looked at his left wing and he took a piece of flak – there was a hole like that where a shell had gone through and ticked him up. Then he rolled back down and we all went on through. When we got to Russia, we had battle damage and so they went on and we stayed. While we were in Russia I always wanted a tool kit and we carried two tool kits for the -- took one to leave in Russia and one to stay with the airplane. But they didn’t need ‘em so I thought, “Well, I’m going to get myself a nice tool kit to take back to England.” I took the tool kit out of the hatch that it was in and slid it under my cot. We had tents and cots. So we waited around and waited around and finally we went out to airplane to see how the repairs were coming. Well, the mechanic, he said, “Well, we have to get some parts from Tehran because some Russian’s stolen that tool kit that had all our nuts and bolts in it.” So Hal Thomas and I went back to our tent and I opened it up and here were all the nuts and bolts that they needed. So the next day – or I guess, that day – we got the Russian truck driver to drive us back out to the airplane and we put it back by the tail wheel. It disappeared and we came back the next day. “How’s our airplane?” “Well that dumb Russian’s gotten scared and he’s returned the tool kit. You can be out of here tomorrow.” (Laughter) So we took off for Italy.
We got almost to Italy and we needed some flak. If we saw flak we’d get credit for a mission. Now, Hansen and the others had gone on several days before us. We were almost a week behind them. So since we were alone, the Tuskegee airmen came up to escort us across part of Yugoslavia. So HB Thomas said, “Can you scare us up some flak so we’ll get credit for a mission?” “Yes, sir, one order of flak comin’ up.” These guys would talk with their.....and of course they could speak better English than we could. And sure enough, up came some flak about 4 miles off the wing, so we got credit for a mission.
Then when we got to - we were in Italy - they were very nice to us. So we painted a sign on a piece of cardboard, Headquarters, 8th Air Force, Mediterranean Detachment. That kind of upset them a little bit. And then I took a white handkerchief and I put an 8 with some wings on it and we held retreat every night - our crew, we were two tents between the main tenting area - everyone was in tents, by the way - and the mess hall. So we’d hold retreat at 5 o’clock every night and they came for miles to watch these crazies from the 8th Air Force holding retreat. Well, it took them about 3 or 4 days - in fact the General came over from their wing to watch these jerks. Well it took them about 3 or 4 days to figure out that the first ones in the mess hall got the little cherry tomatoes. We were always first.
And then they wanted us to do a buzz job when we were leaving. They gave us - we had to have four engines changed on the airplane. And so, they said, “Go to Naples.” In Naples, why, you have to have orders or you couldn’t get any food. The Air Transport Command was in charge. So they gave us some fake orders and our crew we were, and I still got a copy of the orders, our crew was designated for temporary duty in and about the vicinity of Naples. So we got quarters and the quarters were in a convent and the Mother Superior wasn’t very happy with our being in quarters there - being stationed in her convent. They rang a bell every 15 minutes that first night. We were up pounding around all night because we couldn’t sleep. The next morning, she came up and she was fit to be tied. She was accusing us of having women in her convent and she was going to report us to whoever was in charge - whether it was Mark Clark - or whoever she was going to, but our copilot was a first generation Italian and so he spoke to her. She could hardly speak English so he spoke to her and, you know, his dialect was from her village and after that we got cookies, we got fruit, we could do no wrong and for 2 - 3 nights we were in that convent.
And then we came back and they wanted us to do a buzz job which was strictly illegal. And so we said we’d give them a buzz job when we went to England. We took off and Hal, we were taxiing and I don’t know what he did, he kicked the tail and he blew the tent, their operations tent, and the tent kind of blew over these desks and there were papers flying and I told him, “We’ve got to get out of here.” So we taxied on out onto.... and they kept giving us a red light and Thomas said Roger. R1S5, R1S5. Receiving 1” which means you’re not hearing him but you’re sending five - five is loud and clear. So “R1S5. Roger. Clear to go. Roger. Clear to go.” So they were flashing this red light and he was saying we got clearance. We took off. Then he came around and we chandelled off the runway came around and he went right down through the olive trees. We probably blew over a bunch of tents - but we gave them a buzz job. As we left they kept saying, “Come back you cowards,” from the tower. Finally as we left they wished us good luck and we went back to England and got back into the war. That was our adventure.
In Russia, we went into a town and they gave us a week’s rations every day so that we could go in and trade for - champagne is what we were getting. And we went into town and we wanted souvenirs and about 300 maybe more of the Russian people in Poltava would follow us down the streets. Well they were German descendants and we were supposed to carry our weapons showing - well they were just curious. They followed us down and we found a pawn shop - with the 3 balls and everything outside - and we went in there and these people crowded in. We were pushed right up against the counter. We were a little nervous, but we were going to get a souvenir. Well, Thomas, he saw a slide rule – a Russian slide rule - so he negotiated a pair of socks or something - we didn’t have any money. I had a heated suit - jacket - in those days was like the battle jacket. It was gabardine - a nice one but it had all kinds of holes for wires in it. So I pointed to my jacket and they wanted me to get a balalaika. Nah, we could get all those we wanted in Italy. But they had a box of slides - glass slides and a stereo-optic thing. But anyway I thought that would be great - I’d have these nice slides of Russia when we get back to England and I gave them the jacket and out we went with our souvenirs. Well, we didn’t even look at ‘em. I got back to England and he had his slide rule, so I took out my box of slides. Chicago World’s Fair or something about 1916. So, I threw them away. How they got to Poltava we’ll never know. Chicago World’s Fair. But that was our shuttle run to Russia. We just made it into a good time. Although there was a very serious thing while we were there. We went into town every night to barter - which was against Russian military and our military. We weren’t supposed to trade - but we did. One night we were in there and there was a Russian, I think a 2nd Lieutenant or equivalent and he was drunk. He said “Peruski Commandant Moscow”. He was a big shot from Moscow. He walked up to these two other officers and this woman. She was an officer, too. He said something - whatever it was - we were no further away than from here to Karen about that time. The next thing you know these two guys have got him down on the ground and are pounding his head into the pavement. They take this guy’s pistol off and they put a shot through the back of his head. The MPs had us in the trucks and we were off to the base. Rank meant nothing here. You’re out of here. The next morning the CO, whoever he was, said the penalty for disgracing the uniform is execution by the next ranking officer in the Russian army and you’d better believe it. Nothing more was said. That was right in front of us. So we learned that they meant business. But anyway we had a good time. We made it a good time. I guess that’s about the war side of it.
NMcKS: Let’s talk a little bit about coming home - back to the States.
DDW: Coming home was - I was to come first because I was a radar operator and the war ended in Europe and I was immediately given orders to return for B-29 whatever. Thomas and the crew flew me over to Stone - the same place we - and I was to come home ahead of the group. Well, I was to come home on an airplane they had rebuilt in Sweden, one that had been shot down and they put together and flew it back. I was there over 40 some days. The group came home and I was still at Stone. We came home in a patchwork B-17. Some of it was camouflaged and some of it was not and we kept losing an engine. We lost an engine just out of – getting toward Reykjavik, Iceland[2]. Just as we get to Iceland the pilot would fire up the engine so we came in with four. We took off with four and as soon as we got out of sight, he’d feather that engine. We made it all the way on three engines. Turned in the airplane and got to Camp Miles Standish and they put us on a troop train to Tacoma and I was home - about that simple.
NMcKS: What was the welcome like when you got to your town and your family?
DDW: Well, there wasn’t much. I got to Fort Lewis where I’d started out as a draftee - in fact, the same barracks - I was an officer then, but they were using the same barracks that I was in as a draftee. I got on a Greyhound, I guess it was a Greyhound bus in those days, and I rode to Seattle, got on the streetcar, came home, knocked on the door and I was home. That was it. They didn’t know I was coming. I had 30 days R&R – whatever it was – rest and recuperation. It was that simple. It was nice to be home but VJ day hadn’t come up yet. I was home and then they dropped the atomic bomb and VJ day came up a few days after. I’d been playing golf at a local golf course when they took rationing off that night - VJ day. The next day you could buy all the gasoline you wanted and all the tires you wanted. We took off for Vancouver BC which was about 100 miles and that’s what we did. Then I went to pilot training. I couldn’t get out. They wouldn’t release me because I was a radar operator. So, I signed up for pilot training - which I wanted to do anyway. I was a frustrated pilot trainee when they sent me to bombardiering. We didn’t have a choice in the group that I was in because Schweinfurt and Regensburg they lost so many that they just said “you’re a bombardier”, “you’re a navigator”, “you’re a pilot”. So that far we were kind of frustrated. But afterwards we could take pilot training and I did. Anyway, that was end of career 1.
RMcK: That’s a great story.
DDW: That’s about the end of it.
NMcKS: I’m going to add for the record that this has been Nancy McKnight Smith, Russell McKnight and Karen Sayko from the Legacy Committee talking with Dave Webber and we thank you so very much.
DDW: Well, thank you.
[1] U.S. base in Keflavik, Iceland
[2] U.S. base in Keflavik, Iceland